আলাপ:মৃত্যু

উইকিপিডিয়া, মুক্ত বিশ্বকোষ থেকে
পরিভ্রমণে ঝাঁপ দিন অনুসন্ধানে ঝাঁপ দিন

ইংরেজি পরিভাষা[সম্পাদনা]

অন্যান্য নিবন্ধের সাথে মিল রেখে বন্ধনীতে ইংরেজি পরিভাষা রেখেছি। --অর্ণব (আলাপ | অবদান) ১৮:৩৭, ৫ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)

But isn't that only relevant where the English word is the one primarily used in Bengali (like "autism" or "cancer")? I don't see other languages' wikipedias using English translations for common terms like "death". --সামীরুদ্দৌলা ২১:১২, ৫ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)
I am just trying to be consistent. I think for each concept, we should include its English counterpart, as a matter of style. It doesn't matter whether it's a very common concept or an uncommon one. It doesn't hurt even if it is a very common term. You can disagree, of course. --অর্ণব (আলাপ | অবদান) ২২:৩৫, ৫ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)
I think that people can use the interwiki link to find the English counterpart of the Bengali entry, which is how I assume speakers of non-English languages find out the English counterpart to concepts they know about. I feel that English translations should only be included in the article in situations where the English word is commonly used in everyday Bengali. --সামীরুদ্দৌলা ০১:১১, ৬ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)
Like I said, to me it is more a matter of style and its consistent application. The stylistic principle I have been following so far in creating and editing this kind of articles is that for an article on some phenomenon, the English term for it has to be mentioned in the opening sentence, mainly because English is assumed to be the most important Lingua Franca. I do not claim to know which English words are more easily understood by the average Bengali speaker and which are not. Otherwise it becomes somewhat complicated. If you do not agree with this principle I am following, may be we can sort it out and then include the conclusion in a manual of style.--অর্ণব (আলাপ | অবদান) ০২:১৮, ৬ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)

I think we need to apply common sense here, and not ridiculous applications of some supposed rules. There is no need ot write the English word for মৃত্যু. Death isn't an obscure English term that even the laypeople do not know. I'll remove this from the beginning of the article. Note that, for uncommon terms like "Rigor mortis", it is perfectly fine to use the English term. But hey, apply common sense ... you can't put "Death" and "Rigor mortis" in the same category. --রাগিব (আলাপ | অবদান) ০৫:০৪, ৬ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)

I fully agree with Ragib Bhai here. Even though I recognize that English is the most widely-understood language in the world, I don't see why that means it should be used in every Bengali article. If English really had such a status, it would be used in every language's Wikipedia, not just Bengali's. --সামীরুদ্দৌলা ০৮:১৬, ৬ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)
I disagree, of course. But I can see your point of view as well. Like I said, this belongs to a style guide. English wikipedia has one, may be its time that we write one for us here. One more thing, I didn't advocate the use of English terms in the starter sentence of every Bengali article. The thing is, some articles will contain such English terms in the starter sentence, and some won't. In either case, we will be making the decision based on an explicit or an implicit principle. I am for making principles like these explicit, because then there will be less room for confusion. Appealing to "common sense", as Ragib did here, is the cowboy way of doing things, and a bad precedent. Sometimes it works well, but at many other instances it doesn't. :)
And Ragib, you need to wait until the discussion has run its course and a consensus/an impasse has been reached before you pull the trigger. No matter how ridiculous and how common-sensical a position seems to you, I would highly appreciate it if you don't just jump in and assume the role of the arbiter. --অর্ণব (আলাপ | অবদান) ১৭:৩৯, ৬ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)
Somehow I missed your "reply". Anyway, are you suggesting that I have to seek your "permission" to enter a debate? Perhaps you need to take a look at WP:OWN :) --রাগিব (আলাপ | অবদান) ০৩:৫২, ১৩ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)
No, I am not suggesting that. Maybe I wasn't being clear. I am suggesting that you do not assume the role of the arbiter, i.e., don't perform a decisive action before a discussion is over. --অর্ণব (আলাপ | অবদান) ০৪:২০, ১৬ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)

Okay well I don't know how to word this to make it sound right for a style guide, let alone one in Bengali, but my thought is that the most common word(s) used to describe a concept in written Bengali should be the boldfaced version of the title (regardless of the origin of the word), and other common word(s) in written or spoken Bengali optionally used in parentheses. Thus, the article on water can begin with পানি বা জল in boldface, and no parentheticals are needed (as these are the only common words in both written and spoken Bengali for water), while the article on the liver can begin with যকৃৎ বা লিভার (ইংরেজি Liver), কথ্য ভাষায় কলিজা বা কলজে, as many Bengalis are not familiar with the word যকৃৎ, and instead use the English word or colloquial words like কলিজা/কইলজ্যা/কলজে.

Also, if the word or concept is of foreign origin, then the word can also appear in its non-Bengali form in parentheses (as we've been doing already for foreign names and terms), as in জাপান (জাপানি ভাষা: নিহোং বা নিপ্পোং). --সামীরুদ্দৌলা ২১:০১, ৬ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)

I agree mostly. But how do we know কলিজা/যকৃৎ is less common a word than পানি/জল? If you ask a guy who only knows the word কলিজা and not যকৃৎ, there's a big chance that he doesn't know the English translation of পানি either, i.e. he is illiterate. Words like যকৃৎ are found even in the primary level textbooks, at least in Bangladesh. This appeal to "common words" seems awfully subjective to me. --অর্ণব (আলাপ | অবদান) ০১:০৩, ১৩ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)
I agree it's subjective, and I'm sure my example isn't perfect (please keep in mind my primary exposure to Bengali is from Bengali-English bilinguals in the US), but I think that all things are subjective, and we just arbitrarily assign parameters to make them "objective". So we can try and think of some parameters to take the place of the "common sense" referred to by Ragib Bhai, and then we can hopefully agree on this matter. --সামীরুদ্দৌলা ২০:৪৪, ১৩ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)
I have thought a bit about it. We can define "common words" as those words which one can find easily in primary and middle school level textbooks. I could make a list of those words. As a related example, Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary always uses a list of what they think the 3000 most basic English words, The Oxford 3000™, to define all the entries in the dictionary. Read about them here. --অর্ণব (আলাপ | অবদান) ০৪:২০, ১৬ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)


সব বাঙালী মিলে আলোচনাটা ইংরেজিতে করছেন কেন? আলোচনাটা বাংলাতে হলে ক্ষতি আছে কি? জয়ন্ত নাথ ০৪:৫১, ১৩ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)

জয়ন্ত ভাই, আপনি ঠিক বলেছেন। আমরা সবাই বাঙালী, কিন্তু তবু আমরা ইংরেজিতে আলোচনা করছি। এটা আসলে আমার দোষ। আপনি নিশ্চয়ই বুঝে ফেলেছেন, যে আমার বাংলা সত্যি খুবই খারাপ... বিশেষ করে লিখিত বাংলায় আমি অনেক কিছু ঠিকমতে বোঝাতে পারি না। আমি মার্কিন যুক্তরাষ্ট্রে বড় হয়েছি। তাই ইংরেজি আমার কাছে আরও সহজে আসে। আর বাংলা বলতে গেলে অনেক সময় অশুদ্ধ উচ্চারণ/ব্যাকরণ এসে পড়ে। আমার মনে হয় অন্য ব্যবহারকারীরা আমারই জন্য ইংরেজিতে আলোচনা করছেন, আমি যাতে সব কিছু সহজে বুঝতে পারি। তাই এটা ওনাদের দোষ নয়। --সামীরুদ্দৌলা ২০:৪৪, ১৩ জুন ২০০৮ (UTC)