আলাপ:কর্নেলিয়ুস তাকিতুস

সঠিক উচ্চারন ট্যা-সি-টাস্‌ নাকি তাকিতুস? --Peripatetic ১৭:৫৫, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

সঠিক গ্রিক/লাতিন উচ্চারণ তাকিতুস। ইংরেজি bastardized উচ্চারণ ট্যাসিটাস। (another example that should hit home: সত্যজিৎ রায় না স্যাটিয়াজিট রে, কোনটা সঠিক মনে হয়? :-)) --- অর্ণব ১৮:৫৬, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

Interesting. তারপরেও english pronunciation-er একটি নোট রাখা উচিত, কারন ইদানীংকালে তাকিতুস একদমই ব্যবহার হয় না, and he is almost universally known as ট্যা-সি-টাস্‌ today. --Peripatetic ১৯:০৩, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

তাহলে স্যাটিয়াজিট রে এবং রাবিন্ড্রান্যাঠ ঠ্যাগোর-এরও নোট রাখা উচিৎ, কেননা English এখন lingua franca বলে এই বাংলা নামগুলোর bastardized ইংরেজি উচ্চারণগুলোই বাংলাদেশ/পশ্চিমবঙ্গ বাদে সারা পৃথিবীতে বেশি পরিচিত। ঠিক যেমন গ্রীসে তাকিতুসকে তাকিতুসই বলে, ট্যাসিটাস নয়। একটু বাঁকাভাবেই উত্তর দিলাম। কিছু মনে করবেন না। :-) --- অর্ণব ১৯:১২, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

I take your point about purity of pronunication, kintu Bangla Wikipedia'r larger goal holo to give Bengali readers knowledge that they don't otherwise have access to. Shudhu "Ta-kee-toos" pronunication-ta janley it would be misleading to such readers, surely? I think Tacitus'er most-widely used pronunication'ta ekhane dewa dorkar, for that reason alone, dogmatic purity nothwithstanding. :-) --Peripatetic ১৯:১৬, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

I don't think learning the correct pronunciation of Tacitus can in any way be "misleading" for the Bengali readers. However, they could be at a disadvantage when they are traveling in English-speaking countries (e.g., primarily the US and the UK), but, in that case, they should actually have the upper hand in knowing the correct pronunciation. In the English wikipedia, the pronunciation problem is not so apparent because English and Greek use the same Roman alphabet (and English speakers are somewhat arrogant about their bastardized pronunciations, which is fine, we too do that stuff in Bengali all the time, but they are mostly unaware of the weight of English as the linga franca). Further, I am not so sure about the "most-widely used" pronunciation label. A great many people's and places' names are mispronounced in the English media, widely. I actually agree with your proposal about making notes of these, but not as "widely-used pronunciations", but as a "common mispronunciations".

I also sort of fail to understand the relevance of the goal of "giving Bengali readers knowledge that they don't otherwise have access to" regarding this matter. As far as the majority of Bengali readers are concerned, তাকিতুস and ট্যাসিটাস are pretty much the same, as they probably don't know the philosopher in the first place (or maybe a few of them have come to know of him by reading poorly translated books in Bangla). In fact, if I didn't actually write in তাকিতুস in the first place, there was every possibility that ট্যাসিটাস would have prevailed as the heading of this article and তাকিতুস wouldn't have been mentioned at all (which would be truly odd). In any serious Bengali scholarship on Greek philosophy, তাকিতুস will defnitely be preferred over ট্যাসিটাস, all the time. The question is whether we want to strive to make Bangla wikipedia reach that standard. --- অর্ণব ১৯:৫২, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

I'm more interested in taking the common-sense approach in building this Bengali version of Wikipedia. If, for example, you feel that writing স্যাটিয়াজিট রে এবং রাবিন্ড্রান্যাঠ ঠ্যাগোর is common-sensical in BN:WP, then I really have nothing to say, you should go for it. However, for this entry, the fact that Ta-see-tus is the pronunuciation that we are going to find 99.99% of the time is beyond dispute. It doesn't make you incorrect, but it doesn't make Ta-see-tus invalid either. Personally, I feel that editors should not succumb to their pet prejudices/predilections, especially at the expense of common sense. Hope this clarifies. Best regards, Peripatetic ২০:০১, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

Well, your initial enquiry stated "What is the correct pronunciation of Tacitus?" The answer to that is, unequivocally, তাকিতুস। Now, if you asked "What is the common-sensical (and widely mispronounced) pronunciation of Tacitus (and please don't mention the correct pronunciation because the correct pronunciation will show your pet prejudice/predilection)?", I guess I would have answered differently. The answer would have been an expression of puzzled bemusement. :-) -- অর্ণব ২১:১৩, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

Having seen the entry on poor old Nicholas Copernicus and a couple of others, I'm sure this is not an argument I'm going to win, so I won't argue on this point much further. Nonetheless this is an important discussion as I believe the approach you adopt gives rise to plenty of inconsistencies and even absurdities that only serve to confuse. In particular, I was startled by this: থামোরা, স্পেন। I'm sure you are aware there's no such থিং as the থ sound in Spanish. I'm assuming this refers to Zamora, in which case the closest accurate spelling would be সামোরা (pronounced with the softest possible স), while common sense might opt for something like জামোরা or যামোরা। As it stands, থামোরা sounds like something distant both from the actual pronunciation or common transliteration.

And besides, why স্পেন in the first place and not এস্পান্‌ইয়া? Placenames will inevitably cause the greatest inconsistencies. মস্কো or মস্ক্‌ভা? জাপান or নিপ্পন or নিহন? ফ্রঁস or ফ্রান্স or ফরাসী দেশ? ব্রাসিল or ব্রাজিল? Is the "dominance of the lingua franca" acceptable in all these cases?

Lastly, জোন অফ আর্ক versus জান দার্ক। This is even before I ask what to do with the R sound in French, which is closer to খ than it is to the র being used in দার্ক। দাখ্‌ক্‌ maybe???

Anyway, I'm not out to change minds here. Just wanted to point out some of the problems. If this is the approach that is being taken, copious use of Notes and Redirects becomes practically mandatory in such cases if we are not to have an army of confused readers. --Peripatetic ২২:২০, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)

• About the Z in Zamora. In Spain, the Z is pronounced as theta, whose closest Bangla equivalent is, well, থ. However, in Latin america, the Z is prnounced as স/s.
• Names of states and countries are an interesting case. স্পেন, ফ্রান্স, ব্রাজিল (or West Bengal's ব্রেজিল) --- these spellings are widely circulated everyday in Bangla newspapers, and have, essentially, become Bangla words. The same cannot be said of Tacitus.
• The r in জান দার্ক cannot really be duplicated in Bangla. Yes, the খাঁটি throaty Parisian pronunciation of r is closer to খ, but there are some dialects where it is pronounced as a roller r, i.e., র, so I guess it is forgivable.
• Lastly, yes, notes and redirects are always good for clearing up confusion. And it seems that they should be close to, if not always, mandatory. This is the wikipedia, we can edit and improve forever. --- অর্ণব ২২:৪৬, ৬ জুন ২০০৬ (ইউটিসি)